Ari- its snot that I disagree with your positions, its that I have no clue what they are. Your posts sometimes look like a pastiche of discarded signs from a WTO demonstration. Its not the content that I am criticizing, its the argument-by-sloganeering.

E.g. "money is scandalously stolen in front of our faces" what does that mean? You don't think people should pay taxes? You think that someone who invested in Enron at $180 a share is entitled to that money, even though the company wasn't actually worth its market valuation? How exactly would the government insure against market loss without collecting taxes?

[A chimes in: naw something is hella foul bout Enron. Mofos scammed billions using companies named after Star Wars Shit? [Sony's take off balance shit financing is common and considered a normal business method. What they did was flat out lie about the sales and prices. That's just fraud, nothing fancy.] Shelly, come on! Maybe we can start a new linkfilled thread on it. There really was a energy shortage causing all those blackouts right? no? {Sony's take blame your elected leaders. You can regulate or deregulate a market, but if a bunch of term-limited career politicans think they can legislate some half-ass mangement system, they should be prepared to be gamed.] my half assed searching and linking just noise? I dunno. Just tell me the dude did not have the huge brass ones to campaign for tort reform cause.. and killing the environment and supporting atrocities in India.. dude is Darth Vader!]

Sony's take Good Stuff A.D., there's truth in all of that, but so what? To the victor go the spoils. The Repubs were fired up in their hatred for Clintonista, they banded togother, unified behind the Shrub, ponied up millions in a pass-the-hat and won the damn country (and I am enjoying my tax cut, thank you very much). Now they're doing it their way, just like a democrat would. Anyway, you look at Enron and tell us who is entitled to what damages? If I bought at $180 the day before Enron went belly, what was it actually worth? Am I entitled to to $180 when it was never really worth that? If so, who owes it to me? The other shareholders? The Guvment (i.e., all the taxpayers smart enough to stay away from that shit?)? I have very little sympathy 'cause during the California energy crisis I wanted to park some of my roll-over IRA into Natural Gas. I looked at El Paso, I looked at Enron and absolutely passed because that shit was clearly shady and overvalued based only free Yahoo material (I got a mutual fund instead, which is not so hot, but not bankrupt). Companies have always pulled shit like that since the dawn of corporations and from then on to the early U.S. versions; its a republican tradition. But just because bad things happen in the woild, doesn't mean we need to legislate a mess of laws that effectively punish the innocent. Just b/c you ride your motorcycle like a complete nut, doesn't mean I, the innocent law-abiding driver, should face a cc limit or ban on Motos.

But Rick points out: If some of what went on at Enron was "fraud" as you call it (and I agree), then aren't shareholders entitled to damages under existing law? And wouldn't those damages come from the perpetrators of the fraud, such as, e.g., the auditors and company management?

E.g. "I'm not comfortable watching atrocity without taking an outspoken & contrary position.
How many more corp scandals will it take before even the lawyers start saying, 'We're in the midst of a fascist takeover'?" Are corporate scandals "atrocities"? Is Enron the same as Rwanda (by the way, did you support the failure to militarily intervene there?)? See, that kind of hyperbole only energizes the converted, its makes no sense to teh skeptical. Look at Rick's conclusive email on the cost/benefit analysis of the war, or MLK's Letter from a Birmingham Jail to see different approaches.

As point of fact, I do think the country is constantly threatened by fascist sentiments and actors, but I don't think corporate scandals are within 1,000 parsecs of that issue.

And by the way Ari, its America, you can, if you chose hide or reject your heritage. Mine calls for heaping mounds of cabbage and potatoes washed down by home made wine served by a fat wife, but I haven't honored it.

Rick comments with amusement: Linking to a definition of "parsecs" could be interpreted by some as smart-assishness. I know that you're only striving for clarity, I'm just saying that it could be interpreted that way.

[Erik wonders whether Sony will ever call a Rick post "reasoned" again after that comment.] [Sony replies Again? gotta love the edit function]